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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
182
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Posted - 2014.11.29 19:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yes. Keep in mind, however, that such a fit is ass for two reasons:
1. 2x reactives+base regen is ass regen. Either fit better reactives, a proper rep, or rep hives
2. Complex Armor Plates are bad unless you're using a full protosuit, or a sentinel.
Finally, said Caldari fitting has far superior regen, and benefits from superior mobility. It can even throw on a KinCat and get around a 7 m/s sprint speed.
Which is nearly as fast as the Amarr Scout... so I really don't see any reason you should be complaining about "shields not having enough HP", when they get way better regen, and superior mobility.
Oh, also, you can still tank up and fit damps to get under a scanner- one Complex Profile Dampener will get you under any ADV-level scanner.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
184
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Posted - 2014.11.29 21:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:hfderrtgvcd wrote:working as intended. Shields have no movement penalty and regen much faster than armor. not quite, at proto level you can easly get armor suits repping 20-40hp/s while still having sizeable buffer comparable to shield suits in terms of caldari shield tankers their shields only rep at 30/hp a tick scout is 50. thats fine however we all know the problems with scouts but i will spare the ear arch..
I love it when you make yourself look like an idiot. It makes me laugh inside.
Because for an armor suit to do what you describe:
Breakin Stuff wrote:It takes 4 low slots to rep 40 armor/sec. and even then it's 39 actual.
This guy? He's right. It takes a lot of lows to get mega-beast rep rate on armor. Which also means that you have to sacrifice that "sizable buffer" that you claim an armor suit will have.
Also, CalSalt regens shield at 30 hp/s without modules. Add a mix of extenders+energizers and you get yourself a regen beast. You could even use rechargers to save on CPU and remove the slight total shield HP penalty of energizers, and still have beastmode regen.
So, Za'ki, I guess we've proved that you are dumb, probably bad, and should definitely feel bad for vomiting out such drivel and defiling the English language with your idiocy.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
186
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Posted - 2014.11.30 03:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Until such time as we get an infantry portable Remote Shield Booster, Armor still technically has the better regen as it can be increased by logi's assisting a teammate. Additionally, shields do not recharge at all while under-fire, Armor does, so while shields have superior regen rates they have to either have to stay next to cover, or eliminate the enemy before the shield buffer fails. This leads to damage modifiers still being a largely better choice than shield extenders.
Now, if shield recharge was changed to be a recharge time to full, with the rate decaying on a curve the closer you get to 100% shield capacity, (with current shield regen rates being the peak recharge rate) I could see there being no real problem with extenders' current HP values, and as stated earlier an infantry portable remote shield booster would be useful for determining overall armor vs shield balance.
"Armor has regen under fire" is a red herring, because even if you fit five Complex Reps, which is approximately 46.9 hp/s (we'll round to 47 hp/s), and you fit these mods to a Gallente Assault suit (has the highest combined value of low slots+native rep) for an additional 3.5 hp/s, we get ~50.5 hp/s, which we'll just call "50 hp/s" since we already round from 46.9 to 47.
The problem comes when you consider the fact that there's no buffer. Referencing the HF Charlie notes, the Gallente Assault has a base armor of 275 hp; combined with Dropsuit Armor Upgrades L5 we get ~344 hp of armor. Doing the same for shields nets us a base of 155 shield hp, and ~194 shield hp after skills.
Fitting shield extenders basically makes this a shitfit- you're trying to get ultra-regen and good buffer at the same time, which simply doesn't work. If you fit damage... well, I don't think it's too hard to figure out that you'll be pretty easily alpha'd off the field due to having almost no buffer, and there's the whole issue that "regen under fire" will never actually save you.
Can it make a long-range fight go in your favor, if you dip in and out of cover? Sure, I suppose it would- but if you use some kind of "MAXIMUM REP" fit you'll be making yourself pathetically vulnerable to an alpha-strike (like a charge shot from the ScR, or even a heated up LR beam).
With the addition of Shield Regulator modules, shield users can get their regen delays very low, so in the same kind of fight they end up with the same benefit- duck into cover, regen a little bit, poke back out. Not only that, but it's not that difficult to get shield regen rates pretty high- as in "40-60 hp/s or higher". Do you need to fit a recharger or an energizer? Well, yeah- but to get that supposedly insane armor rep rate, an armor tanker has to pretty much fill his low slots with reppers.
More-or-less, an armor tanker has to pick between having amazing buffer, and good regen- they can fit a little of both, but one will always be better. Due to the nature of armor mods, it tends to work out that armor has better buffer (IE, more raw HP) than shield, but much worse rep rate... and disadvantage of movement penalties.
Shield suits, however, can attain a useful buffer and high rep rates. By that I mean that a shield suit can get enough shields that they aren't instagibbed whenever someone looks their way, but they still have incredible regen.
Armor is the opposite- you'll get some pretty impressive buffer, but you won't be getting anything resembling impressive regen at the same time; the fact that armor regen works all the time is, IMO, purely because of the fact that once armor goes, you die. If your shields go down you still have a little bit of armor left before you have to be scraped off the floor. Armor users don't really get that benefit.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
186
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Posted - 2014.11.30 06:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jacques Cayton II wrote:Please stop my Caldari suit can rep 20 hp armor like it is nothing a good armor fit is easy to fit. You armor guys get constant regen we shields dont and when we do regen 1/2 hp damage can stop that regen. I mean a fly landimg on your dropsuit can stop the regen
In case you weren't paying attention, he's referring to the shield regen rate that can be pumped up quite impressively on Caldari suits.
There's also the whole "You have to sacrifice many low slots to have high armor regen" thing.
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Except that an armor suit doesn't have to fit for regen to get regen thanks to the Repair Tool equipment,
This is a tactic that requires two or more players to actually take advantage of. If you do not have at least two players (IE, the MAXIMUM BRICK and the dork with the repair tool), then this is impossible to actually take advantage of.
Not only that, but fitting for MAXIMUM BRICK is generally assumed to involve Complex Armor Plates. Fitting multiple Complex Plates results in your speed going from "a little bit slower" to "slower than that fat ass you're trying to rep". Seriously, throw four Complex Plates onto anything, and watch your speed go down the drain.
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:as long as there remains no shield option there is no way to correctly compare them.
False; there's a way to appropriately compare each method. That method is to compare them in isolation; IE, using only what modules can be fitted to a singular suit, without outside assistance- like repair tools.
That being said, there should absolutely be a remote shield repair option. However, that is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:And as an armor tanker and long time amarr logi, let me tell you Armor Regen under fire is and awesome boon, even now with the current rep rates it can make the difference in survival and death.
I'm not saying that the benefits of armor regen "under fire" aren't useful, I'm saying that it's a complete wash when compared to an equivalent shield fit. The only times that high regen really comes into its own is when engaged over long range in a cover-hopping duel. Since you're ducking in and out of cover- thus having a few moments to regen without being shot at- it really does make a difference.
The thing that you seem to be missing is that shield suits do that even better- particularly given that they can still budget low slots for things like EWAR and biotics without compromising their main tank. This also helps them maintain a range gap in which to take advantage of their superior regen, or to function as a hit-and-run platform that uses escape time to regen.
Moreover, the current armor rep rates are higher than they've ever been. Of course it's going to be pretty awesome to use reps now- they've been buffed quite extensively after having not been touched, since, what, pre-Uprising? Something around a year and half now?
As it so happens, I also armor tank- in fact, I only armor tank. And I also use the Amarr Logistics dropsuit- in fact it's the only suit I currently have proto'd, and it is my preferred dropsuit. I only bring this up to show that these things are not going to make your blithering more valid.
That is called an "appeal to authority" (in this case, your preferred role and tanking method are the "authority"). It is a fallacious debating method. Please do not use it again, because it will just make you look stupid.
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Granted buffer will help you more in general, I prefer to have higher regen because my health does come back as bullets are coming in. I'm not saying that the base armor regen is insane currently (nowhere in my post did I reference insane armor regen from native reps only) but pointing out that it always works, regardless of when you last took damage.
In other words, you admit that the strength of armor tanking is buffer, and that it is a playstyle choice that you make to fit for "high regen".
Moreover, I never bothered mentioning native reps as the only source of armor regen. I fully admit to mentioning native reps in the context of a full-on regen tanked Gallente Assault suit, but that was only to consider the entirety of the armor regen.
There's also the whole issue that armor reps will almost invariably have lower regen rates than shield regen. This is especially true when considering an equal investment into module slots; IE, for each armor rep we add, we also add a shield recharger (or energizer) to a shield suit.
Keep in mind that comparing a fit with multiple armor repairers to the base shield regen values is utterly fallacious and borderline deceptive. It's not an equal investment in the slightest- the armor user must invest several slots on his dropsuit to get a moderate amount of regen, while the shield user can rely purely on his built-in shield regen, devoting all of his slots to buffer.
Finally, when I say that "armor regen under fire" is a red herring, what's really going on is that such a trait is irrelevant. Armor regen under fire will never actually save you, unless you make effective use of cover. At which point the shield user can do the same thing.
So unless you can actually provide proof (IE, not any "oh, armor regen under fire is an awesome boon"/"it can make the difference between survival and death" anecdotal BS that provides no basis in reality) that 20-30 hp/s of passive armor rep can save you against 350-400 DPS (or more!) of weapons fire... then keep your mouth shut, because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
188
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Posted - 2014.11.30 22:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
*Looks at fit*
DAAYUUUM
/walks away jelly of shield tanking
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